All right. Hello. Hello, everyone. Welcome to an episode of the podcast. I’m so excited to be here with you today, I’m so excited to be just having a guest on the podcast today. So this is the first time having a guest on this iteration of my podcast. And I think it’d be really fun and really beautiful. So I always like to start this with what’s around me and kind of just settle into the space together before we have a conversation. So I’m recording from my office, I’m in my green velvet office chair, I have a blanket on top of me, even though it’s 80 degrees out right now, our home has kind of maintained coolness inside. So I feel a little chilly and have a blanket. And then I’ve got the candle, usually my dogs in the room with me, but he’s actually just out and about with my husband, and so he’s not here. So we have quiet today and just a good space for conversation. So that’s where I’m coming from today. For folks who are listening, I always love to encourage you to do the same. So just notice what’s around you notice the textures. Notice where there might be sun shining through. Notice how you’re just kind of sitting in your chair, perhaps the textures touching, touching you in your seat, or on the floor, and just become really present in this moment. So I encourage you to do that. And then today, our guest, we’re going to be chatting we’re kind of wrapping up, June together. And so we’re going to be chatting about ties sky about the worthiness wound. And so as we’ve been talking about earning your belonging, worthiness tends to be the narrative underneath that. And so I’m really excited to just kind of explore this a little bit more and see what comes up as we go. So just to introduce tyese tyese is a psychotherapist and writer on a heart led mission to support the seekers, the edge dwellers and the why the heck do I feel so broken? Have the world reclaim their sense of worth by learning how to explore trust and express themselves through her programs, podcast reclaim, and work with individuals and couples. tyese is guided by the belief that when we know who we are, we become more free. She holds a Master’s in clinical psychology and helms a therapy practice in Los Angeles. You can learn more about her at I am 30 sky.com. And just about everywhere on social media at I am Tice sky. So tyese Thank you so much for joining me today. I

2

Speaker 2

2:46

can’t remember the last time someone read my bio, in my presence. It’s always a little bit of an awkward experience. But thank you for the

MJ

Megan Johnson

2:57

guy, especially as we can see each other I know, I’m only going to be using the video for a portion of this. But as we’re what like I’m just reading this out loud and you’re just kind of watching me so I’m just receiving. I love it. Um, so I would love for you to just kind of share as well just like where you’re recording from maybe some of your environment.

2

Speaker 2

3:16

Yeah, I’m in Los Angeles, California, in my home office. And I have a little doggie bed next to my arm chair, where my little 10 pound dog chewy, gets to rest and snoozing right now living his best life. I’m just yeah, I’m talking about you. And he looks at me. So I’m just really aware of his little presence next to me. And it’s kind of a gray day, which doesn’t happen often in our lives. So it feels a little more subdued today. A little, like cozy. Yeah. Bringing in a good vibe.

MJ

Megan Johnson

3:54

I love that. I love that. Yeah, sometimes cloudy days can be just comforting in a way.

2

Speaker 2

3:59

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it really depends on where you are in the world. Because we get sunshine so often that when we don’t it’s like a nice little reprieve. But that’s the privilege of living in Southern California.

MJ

Megan Johnson

4:14

Totally. Yeah, I know. We’ve so I’m in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. That’s where I’m recording from. And I know we’ve had a very different Yeah, we’ve had a couple of good weeks of mostly sunshine now. But before that, I think the statistic was out of 42 days, 41 of them were cloudy. And we finally like when one sunny day. So it’s like we have sunshine. Thank goodness.

2

Speaker 2

4:36

Yes, yes. So you get it. It’s a totally different experience when you are really deprived with the fun

MJ

Megan Johnson

4:43

100% Yeah, so I’d love to just hear a little bit of like your story. And I know a lot of your work, at least from what I see online. It does relate to the worthiness wound and so I’d love to hear kind of what brought you to that place and And if there’s any stories that you had to kind of overcome to get where you are? Sure, well,

2

Speaker 2

5:05

I started. Really, I mean, don’t we all start from birth but, but I started in college when I developed an eating disorder. That really shook me to my core, I couldn’t, it didn’t make sense. I didn’t understand where it was coming from. I thought I had a pretty average upbringing and loving home, I had, you know, clothes and food. And I didn’t really understand why I was suddenly starving myself, or binging and going through the whole process of my eating disorder. But that was a wake up call, in some ways start to pay attention to what’s happening in my internal world. And so as I began, what I call my healing journey, are just the exploration of the inside. And in ways which, as we tend to what happens inside, we start to change and shift what happened from the outside, I started to rub up against this chronic state of inadequacy with which doesn’t just mean that I didn’t feel good enough, but also in ways that I felt too much that I was too loud, too opinionated, too boisterous, too, etc. And at the same time, I also felt so inadequate, I’m not smart enough, I’m not funny enough, I’m not etc, enough. And this was really interesting, because it couldn’t really find anything, any in any of the books, you know, on self development, psychology, philosophy, it wasn’t really finding any answers specifically to address this. There’s a lot of, you know, ideas in self help, that worth is important. It’s good to, you know, they talk about self worth, self confidence, self esteem as important metrics for a well lived life, etc. But there really wasn’t any conversation specifically about what do you do when, you know I can, I can know that this is important, but but I don’t feel it. How do I bridge that gap? And so that’s when I really started to earnestly research and through my clinical work attempt to understand what is this phenomenon? Why does it exist? And how can we begin to attend to it so that, like, in my bio, we become more free, like so that it doesn’t feel like we’re constantly being held back by our own material, our you know, our own ways in which we think we cannot, or we are too much of. So, you know, my past has really been informed by an understanding that when we know ourselves, and when we become more curious about how culture and self intersect, the more we can decide we have more choice, you have more freedom, more possibility, more options.

MJ

Megan Johnson

8:10

Yeah, yeah. That’s really beautiful. And I feel like, it’s not something that I’ve always heard people talk about, as well as like, sometimes we just talk about the concept, right? It’s kind of like the intellectualization. And you’re 100% like spot on that there’s not a lot of information, still, I mean, it’s become more prominent, but like, what are the next steps then? And what what does it actually look like to take that information and actually embody worth? Right, except that for ourselves? Right?

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Speaker 2

8:45

Yeah, it’s where I really struggled with ideas around mantras, affirmations, mindset work, there’s a lot in our culture, in the self development culture, specifically, that that thoughts create your reality. So all you have to do is change your thoughts and your reality changes. And I really bought into that I really believe that I think there’s something so it can feel very empowering to imagine that maybe we’re not so stuck. But I but I think while that can be true, and that there are facets of truth in that I continually rubbed up against, well, I’m thinking I am worthy. And I’m repeating that to myself, and I have a book of affirmations and I wake up and I make gratitude lists. And all of these things feel really good, temporarily. But then why is it that when it comes to doing the hard things, when it comes to having the difficult conversations when it comes to, you know, putting myself out there in some way? No affirmation phase, right. That’s the land in my nervous system. What’s the gap? What do I do? How do I bridge that?

MJ

Megan Johnson

9:56

Yeah. So this was kind of all something that you You started like it’s sort of percolating, essentially in your system as you were navigating your own mental health struggles. What What kind of came next?

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Speaker 2

10:11

Well, so I this was in college well, but before they give the word and so I was in college grappling with an eating disorder trying to find, I think, like many of us do in our late teens or early 20s. What we’re going to do for the rest of our lives, you know, no pressure, we’ve got to figure that out. And, and I studied philosophy, I studied psychology, I studied business, I really wanted to find myself and I couldn’t. So when I graduated college, I didn’t know what to do. I entered the workforce grappling with figuring out where do I land, and I found myself in a yoga class. And that trajectory of my life changed after that point, because I was starting to find that this simple movement, right, that’s just doing body as you know, kind of poses was really changing something very fundamental within me so. So I went and I became a yoga teacher. And then I moved into the world of coaching and became a coach and did that for a decade. And then that was when I really started to work with people who are grappling with worth and feelings of inadequacy and not belonging. And so that’s when my clinical mind started to develop. But then I went to get my masters and become a psychotherapist. All in efforts to continue to understand this phenomenon, and also expand, what does it mean to treat it? What does it mean to attend to it? What does it mean to heal it? And that’s where you’ll find me now. So I’m a psychotherapist, I have a program called 40 Women rise where the whole point of the program is to talk about the worthiness wound and then continuing to expand, what does it mean? How do you navigate it? What does it look like? How does it again? How does it intersect with a culture that has some pretty clear ideas of what is acceptable and not acceptable? And can you ever find worth in a culture that tells us that you shouldn’t be the way you are? You know, that’s a real question that it can be really hard to sit with, you know, if we have identities that go against our culture’s expectations or ideas, of what normal look alike, I mean, how do you how do you find space to exist within yourself? And also a big level a big layer to this work is how do we find ourselves in relationships? Right? Like, how do we find relationships that feel meaningful to us? How do we find ourselves feeling a sense of worthiness? Existing and being alive belonging with other people?

MJ

Megan Johnson

12:50

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, that’s so much of. So again, like what I most of my work kind of correlates to this concept of dominant narratives dominant dogma out in the world, which you know, exactly what you’re saying, like we see it in, in magazines that tell us you’re not enough by this product to become enough. And like, yeah, I feel like marketing for me. So my background I started in, in design and marketing. And that I just feel like marketing is so pervasive in pushing narratives, like that’s all it is, is telling you what you like, you know, picking out your pain point, letting you know where you’re not enough, and where you need their stuff to be enough. And it’s just like, that’s our, we’re surrounded by it online, we’re surrounded by it, you know, when we go to the store, wherever we’re at, which I think it’s really beautiful as well just kind of coming like those presencing practices like we started with, I find those to be helpful, in a sense, as well as being in nature, because we actually don’t have to be as present in those narratives. But I’m curious what cuz like, in your work with the worthiness wounds, how do you see worthiness correlate to belonging?

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Speaker 2

14:02

Um, yes, I tend to find that they’re very interwoven. So let’s back up. So the way that I have really understood the worthiness one is that it’s a it’s an emotional wound. That’s why I decided to call it a worthiness wound because I wanted to kind of evoke thoughts of a wounding something that exists within us that we can’t just kind of bandaid over that that’s, you know, it requires attention and requires thought and presence and healing etc. And that it is born out of relationships. So, it is, you know, human beings are relational beings, we know ourselves through another, we don’t know ourselves independently of others. And as we see ourselves and others are mirrored by others are thought of by others are attuned to by others, we learn who we are. And so oftentimes the messaging that we get that we are it too much or we are not enough is a reflection of the people around us, reflecting back to us, essentially giving us spoken or unspoken messages that are conveying these beliefs. Something as simple as saying stop crying, it’s not that big of a deal, right is a subtle, but potent way in which it often doesn’t happen just once. It’s a relational roadmap, it’s the way in which we’re continually related to that tells us, you shouldn’t cry, you shouldn’t have your internal experience, whatever you’re experiencing, it’s too much for this person to their, which is true, right? That’s what that is why they’re saying it because it is too much for them to bear. And so we then learn, oh, that we ourselves are too much or too little. We’re not, you know, in a little developmental brain, like we’re not understanding of like, Oh, my dad’s really overwhelmed right now. But with work, you know, we take it in as Oh, no, we are wrong, we are bad, there’s something wrong with us. And so despite maybe growing in a wonderful environment, your parents may have been so loving, they may have done the best that they can, it doesn’t necessarily mean that we’re immune to subtle messages that tells us that the ways in which we are is not okay, right, it’s again, inadequate, too much, etc. I think in some ways, how this can get complicated is that it really requires us to think about the context of our lives. For some of us, culture, our families is a protective factor against a culture. For example, if you are raised in a home where everybody in the home is of the same race, then you may be protected against a culture that tells you that there’s something wrong with your face, right? Versus the difference that say that you are raised in a hetero, hetero normative home. So let’s say that your parents are straight and you are born, you might you grapple with and reconcile with the fact that you’re gay, right, but your parents are homophobic. Now, your family is not a protective factor, it’s a risk factor against developing a stronger sense of self. Right. So it’s not just that culture is homophobic and racist. It is also that there are different factors that can protect us from influencing our sense of self. But of course, we’re not we can’t separate ourselves from culture, we may have the most protective family, and then we go into our school environment, where now we are reminded, or we are being told, subtle and not so subtle ways, right? That there’s an identity that is wrong or bad, etc. And now we have to grapple with that. So you know, the worthiness wound is essentially a wound of belonging, it’s telling us that there is something within us that does not belong. And so healing, it requires us to find belonging. And because it is an emotional wound, born out of relationships, the way it is healed is through relationships. It is through finding ways that we belong and finding corrective relationships that can teach us how to be in our own belonging, as well as being in love belonging with relationships.

MJ

Megan Johnson

18:15

Yeah, yeah. Wow, that’s really powerful. I hadn’t put some of those pieces together before myself in regards to the relationship piece of that. But that’s yes. So huge to all of that. So I guess I’m curious. First, let me share a little bit of my story, because I think that might be helpful as well for listeners. So for myself, I grew up in a very conservative Christian environment, kind of like a high high control religion, evangelical fundamentalist. And since you know, the past four or five years or so, kind of exited evangelical Christianity, and I’m still very spiritual, but no longer identify as Christian. You know, I’ve handed back the fundamentalism handed back a lot of the the, yeah, fundamentalist beliefs around

19:05

I love that handed back. No, thank you.

MJ

Megan Johnson

19:11

Not for me. But in that process, you know, so much of my belonging was tied up in my belief system, I went to a Christian college, that’s where I met my husband, like, like I was even. I just recently started voice lessons, which has been really fun. But for me growing up, my voice was so tied to singing worship music. And so now I’m in this place of okay, well, what is my voice if it’s not singing, worship music that I no longer agree with? And trying to you know, build those relationships kind of just with myself in my voice. But I’m still very much in the process of building relationships with folks outside of the church, because I was very much surrounded by folks who were all Christians all in the church all had the same belief system. I have, you know found some beautiful pockets of, of humans to surround myself with? But I think it’s a it’s a long process. And when you, you know, spent 25 years of your life in that environment, I, you know, it takes some time. But in my experience with my clients as well is we all have stuff like that, that we’re processing, whether it’s church related, or, you know, family oriented, you know, beliefs of some kind. And just finding out who we are, I think as we kind of go through our 20s and into our 30s, I think so much more of our identity kind of comes to the surface. And I suppose I’m curious as you see folks navigate they’re worthy that worthiness one and build relationships, build that belonging that they’re searching for? What does that look like? How do you see folks finding those spaces for themselves that are safe?

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Speaker 2

20:54

Yeah, it’s a great question. And I think we often get ideas of what relationships are that then go against what it means to find belonging in relationships, because even as I’m hearing, you ask me that, I am already hearing people say, Well, isn’t that codependency, right? We shouldn’t need other people for our identity? Right? We shouldn’t get worse from other people. You know, that’s a question that I often get. And I think we are in, especially the, the, our western, kind of individualistic notions of we shouldn’t need people, we should be able to be self sufficient. And I think what we’re missing in that equation is that we actually, so desperately do need people, and we need them for our survival. As a child, biologically speaking, of emotionally speaking, but also now you know, I am not self sufficient, I cannot, I do not raise my own food, you know, I need electricity. And there’s all sorts of ways in which we need each other even, you know, on a physical level, but certainly on an emotional ecosystem,

22:04

like we’re all Harbinger.

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Speaker 2

22:07

Yeah. And then we can think about things in terms of like CO regulation. And you know, when we’re talking about being able to self regulate, what we’re actually talking about is internalizing co regulation, right? It’s being able to bring in somebody doing it with us so that we can then learn how to do it alone. And so we often skip that step, and immediately go to how can I take care of myself? How can I self regulate because I don’t want to need people. And I think that comes from being really hurt by our need by our dependency with other people. It was taken for granted, it was taken advantage of I mean, it was, you know, denied, it was told that you’re too much right? You can’t need you can’t depend, you have to be self sufficient thinking about parental FIDE children and the ways in which we’re told that we have to grow up before we were developmentally ready. So when we’re talking about relationships, this is what we’re talking about negotiating the ways in which we depend, and don’t depend, how can we be in relationship and be our own person within relationship? Where do we lose ourselves in relationship? Versus how do we hold ourselves but stay attached, they stay connected. I’m reading a book called The Schopenhauer errs porcupines, and there’s a short little story at the beginning of the book, that is inspiration of the book that has really kind of made this come alive for me. And it talks about porcupines that are cold out at night. And they huddle together for warmth. However, as they huddle each other for warmth, their porcupines prick each other. So then they separate, right, because then they get their pained by the closeness. So they try to separate themselves. And as they separate, they lose the proximity and the warmth that comes from that. And that’s the whole story. And I think that little allegory is so perfectly exemplifies this, not enough too much dynamic, this, how to be close, but also be ourselves. How does closeness creates pain? How this distance create pain? And how can we find our identities within relationships, without losing ourselves in relationships? So, for example, for you and people were coming out of a more orthodox or a conservative community, there is now a finding of self, right, and also a finding of self within relationships, and all of the things that it has been wronged from you. What does authority mean? How do we relate to authority without losing ourselves? Right? How do we relate without needing to like to be different and to be the same? Right How can we relate to differences a lot of Orthodox communities right, really a poor difference? You dress similarly right? You have to look similar and you have to abide by all these rules. How do we find freedom while also being intimate? So there’s all sorts of ways that worthiness is showing up without ever even really talking about worthiness. Right that we are negotiating. And as we negotiate and think about relationships, we are in it in a way tending to our worthiness, we are finding ways to belong within ourselves and within relationships.

MJ

Megan Johnson

25:26

Yeah, so something I’m curious about, I suppose, is on this journey that you see people on. So again, to kind of just relate it to myself, because I feel like yeah, that’s an example that I can, like work from. And so for me, I really focused first and foremost, kind of on that self regulation piece of things and finding self first, and then starting to build that bridge with others, and starting to experiment with the relational piece of things. I should feel like that also includes so I had coaches and therapists and things like that. So in general, I always had some type of relationship to support me on that journey.

2

Speaker 2

26:08

But maybe the relationship wasn’t the emphasis. Yeah,

MJ

Megan Johnson

26:11

yeah, exactly. And so I’m curious for folks listening, do you see that that is a pattern where folks tend to need to focus on one over the other? does it tend to start with one over the other?

2

Speaker 2

26:24

I mean, that’s certainly was also my experience, right. So when I was here, you know, healing my eating disorder, I was also working with a therapist that I worked with for 10 years. But I never ever thought about the relationship with a therapist. I was learning tools, I wanted the tools. You know, I was doing yoga and meditation and mindfulness. And I delved deep into Buddhism and Hinduism, and, you know, Christian spirituality. And I was really I wanted the tools, you know, the breath, work, you know, all of those really yummy things, embodiment practices, the worksheets, the work, I wanted the homework, Megan, like, I love that stuff. CBT, mindset work, all that really is self containing, but we’re changing the self, one of the tools that was so profound for me and I still teach them were the womanizers inner child work, which is crazy, because you don’t need other people, right? You find your own inner child, and then you relate to that child differently than how you were related to obviously, it’s much more nuanced and complicated enough, but on the whole, right, that’s exactly what it is. And you don’t need people. And that felt important to me at that part of my journey, because I didn’t trust people, people were the reason why I was in pain. I didn’t like people I don’t want. I don’t want people, I want to find a way to be within myself. Yeah. So I don’t think that’s everybody’s story. I think you’re right, everybody’s healing is different. But it sounds like your story and my story are very aligned, where there was a point in time where that was really important. And that’s not reflected on my teaching and reflected on my work and how I thought and taught. And then, and then it got to a point where I felt I felt like, I couldn’t do more, that now anything more that I was doing was was feeding an inadequacy, because I was trying to feed a hole that can’t be filled alone, I wanted to find ways to be in relationship, I wanted intimacy, I was starting to long for real long term meaningful connections, not just with a significant other, but in terms of friendships and sort of in terms of colleagues, I didn’t want to always have to be in conflict, feeling left out, feeling. You know, like I didn’t belong, like my staff was coming with me in every relationship. And I felt like the next chapter was to start to really grapple with that. And there was in that which I’m still in, and maybe for as I don’t, I can’t predict the future. But it was in this aspect, that I started to really deepen my knowledge more of the worthiness wound. So you know, for people who are listening, that may be feeling really overwhelmed. I always tell people, just just where you are, whatever you feeling called to learn from whoever you’re feeling, call whoever you follow, whoever you’re gravitated towards whatever book is interesting to you off of the, you know, shelf, trust that go with that, you know, it will change and evolve. And that’s good. That means that you’re growing, you know, the teachers that were really impactful for me 10 years ago, now I look at their work, and I’m like, that doesn’t feel useful to me anymore. Does that mean that those teachers were wrong or bad? No, it’s evolution. It’s growth. So wherever you are on your healing journey is exactly where you’re supposed to be. Right exactly where you can. You’re finding the right people around you, but let me tell you what, Megan, it, you know, I had that therapist for 10 years. We concluded our work together. You know, I started working with another therapist. And I realized, oh, all that inner child work that I was doing that I felt was self sufficient. The only way I was able to do that was because I had an example of somebody who was helping me do that. Yeah. Right. Like I, how would I know how to be different with myself if I never have any example of how to be different with myself, right? So even though that therapist and I never really talked about our relationship, specifically, without even knowing it, she was my model for how to be a different mother to myself.

1

Speaker 1

30:35

Right. So really, that’s the mirroring that you’re talking about? Yeah,

2

Speaker 2

30:39

exactly. So even if you’re not doing relationship work, you’re probably doing relationship work. And, you know, if that’s overwhelming for people who don’t like people, like I was, you know, it’s not to scare you. But But that’s essentially what’s healing. You know, what’s changing is the relationship, whether you emphasize that or not

MJ

Megan Johnson

30:56

100%, which I feel like also just highlights the value of having like, if you’re unable to like, depending on where you’re at, currently, if you’re unable to engage in new relationships, or just don’t find that to be safe yet. There’s such value in having a support system of some kind and finding can’t do it alone. But your therapist or coach or something like that, because, like you were saying, without even needing to necessarily talk about that.

2

Speaker 2

31:23

They can we can’t do it alone abilities. Yeah, period. We can’t do it alone. That is that is an outright lie. Speaking of dogma, it is a lie. It is it has never happened. And it won’t ever happen. We can’t do it alone. Nothing. We can’t do it alone. You know, I mean? I mean, we could just go off on cultural things, but we can’t do it alone. And we shouldn’t have to do it alone. Why would we have to do it alone?

MJ

Megan Johnson

31:49

Yeah, 100% I suppose I do have a curiosity there for you. So I’ve been studying more and like getting more tapped into the concept of eco therapy, and being able to attune to nature, and so on, what are your thoughts around something like that, like, not only relating to other humans, but also perhaps using animals and trees and Yahner to be a healing mirror in some ways?

2

Speaker 2

32:16

Oh, it can be wonderful. I mean, for that was the one of the jokes that I recently made with a colleague is like, I have a magnet on my fridge that says the best therapist in this house has four paws and for, right, and it’s funny, because my husband and I are both therapists, and yet it is our dog that we joke has has the most therapeutic, you know, because there is something about taking care of an animal about the uncondition ality that animal gives us that is so it’s so delicious. I mean, it’s so healing, it’s so wonderful. And I think for people who have been really harmed by other humans, who have no internal roadmap for safety within relationship, nature is a great place to go. Now, I will say that there is I think, a part of what, what nature means to us as humans that are different depending on where we are in the world, right? For some of us, nature feels like something that’s out there that we can go to, right. And for some people, nature is everywhere. And it’s making their lives really difficult. And the idea of them using nature to heal, like wouldn’t be acceptable for them. So we do want to think about, you know, whoever, you know, whoever’s listening, that the context obviously plays a part in this. But yeah, I think, honestly, listen, whatever is resonating, whatever is like, soothing, that, that wound that by offering something juicy and nourishing and supportive, by all means, right? We we, if there’s anything that I have learned, is that we are each on our own individual process. And there’s something really unique and beautiful about each of our individual processes. And just because it’s worked for me, doesn’t mean it’s gonna work for anybody out there is, you know, a body of science and research that can support us in knowing how psychotherapy works, for example, but if it doesn’t work for you, it doesn’t work for you find something that does no one I think is too hopeless, right or too, too, too broken. None of us are broken, but we can find we can find things that will support us and that will allow us to live whatever life we want to live. And if you are feeling called to deepen your relationships and to find ways to feel more worthy, odds are it’s going to come out of relationships. But relationship with animals is a great place to be

MJ

Megan Johnson

34:45

Yeah, yeah, I love that. And I just like all have what you were saying to I mean, just like the concept of man, I lost my train of thought. What were you just sorry about that? Well, like the animals came back. And I was like, oh, yeah, dogs. So cute. Yeah. What were you saying before that?

35:09

Well, we were talking about eco therapy,

MJ

Megan Johnson

35:11

eco therapy, and then you kind of went on. You know what, it doesn’t even matter if it was

35:18

awesome. Yeah, conversation.

MJ

Megan Johnson

35:21

I love it. So I guess my next question then is, and you’ve kind of already started sharing this a little bit. But what would be like three empowering tips for folks that you would like to offer, that maybe they’re wanting to tap into their worth? They’re wanting to choose their belonging for themselves and kind of begin that that healing process?

2

Speaker 2

35:42

Yeah. Oh, tips, let’s see. I think something that can be really useful for people is to find spaces to reflect, right? If we want to start to cultivate a relationship with our inner world, if we want to start understanding what’s happening within us, then we need spaces to reflect on it, whether that’s journaling practice, whether it’s therapy, or coaching, whether it’s, you know, some type of mindful movement, I mean, we, again, get have an opportunity to find what will work for us, none of these things will work for everybody. But, you know, if we want to do inner healing, we have to carve space to do inner work. Yeah, you know, can’t have it both ways. Unfortunately. Sometimes it’s nice, this fantasy, right, that I don’t have to change, and things will change, you know, really, really wonderful. Can I have everybody else change so that I don’t have to that would be great. Unfortunately, I don’t think it works that way. So, so space to reflect. And I will also say something specifically about the worthiness wound is that when when we create space to reflect, what we may find is that we may actually start to hear that voice. And before I start to get too curious about that voice, and like, what the word is going to say, and always ask myself, like, Am I hungry? Am I tired? Am I feeling disconnected from people? Right? Because when I’m hungry, I will have all sorts of ideas in my mind, that will immediately change once I am no longer hungry, right? Like, when I get a good night’s rest, like how I experienced myself in the world changes dramatically. And when I’m doing something new, if I’m doing something for the first time, and I do put myself out there in a new vulnerable way, after the fact, I’m probably gonna be more in touch with feelings of inadequacy are too much. And so if we know this, then we can set ourselves up for success, right? That when, when we start to carve out space to explore what’s happening internally, and we’re reconciling and noticing that we’re being really mean to ourselves, we’re feeling really inadequate, just check in like, Am I hungry? Am I thirsty? Am I tired? You know, my disconnected from people haven’t been alone for too long do I need to connect with somebody, you know, or just do something new and vulnerable, etc. Okay, so that’s number two. And then number three, let’s say it’s none of those things. Let’s say you are just in a space of feeling inadequate when I was a little kind of activity, so to speak, a little way that sometimes I can make the woodiness Wouldn’t that feel so big in that moment? It’s just to imagine it embodying something other than me, right? Like it’s, it looks like this. It has a name, it has a texture, right? This is an exercise I think we can use for many, many different things inside of us. Again, this is all self regulating, but can be useful at times. So Oh, my gosh, Sally, the worthiness when they’re speaking to me again, right is much a different texture than Oh, my God, I’m feeling inadequate, right. So when we can kind of depersonalized or separate our who we are from this part of ourselves, then we can start to have a little bit more space to think about, oh, what’s going on? Know what’s happening here? Why Sally, the worthiness film coming up right now, you know what may be here. And it can make it feel a little bit smaller, more containable, more manageable, so that we can then get more curious about it, when we’re feeling really flooded and overwhelmed by inadequacy, or the sense of brokenness is just so big that we don’t even know what to do and we can collapse in it. So tip number three, I guess it’s just a way that to just be able to give ourselves a little bit of space and distance so that we can we can see what’s going on. And then tip number four. tip is don’t think that you have to do it alone, and that there’s people that want to help you. There’s people out there that want to help you. Yeah, you’re allowed to receive that you’re allowed to seek that. And if it didn’t work the first time, keep trying, keep trying to find it, you know, don’t give up on yourself.

MJ

Megan Johnson

39:56

Yeah, 100% I love that. Those are Those are so helpful, I really love the kind of personification of the worthiness moment as well. Yeah, I feel like we can do that with a lot of things. But it’s, it’s so helpful,

2

Speaker 2

40:09

it can be so helpful, right? Like it when we get to identify with something, it just completely overwhelms the system. In many different ways,

MJ

Megan Johnson

40:19

braid like the just the, the inner dialogue can just get so chaotic. And so being able to create that distance is so helpful. I love that something I remembered, but I wanted to say earlier as well. So when you were talking about just really finding this spaces to start to heal and to you know, whether that’s you know, relating to a dog relating to a person relating to, you know, nature. So much of that exploration as well, it feels like the worthiness wound journey in some way, it’s essentially kind of like it starts with self trust, or it like you have to play with the concept of self trust. Because we are listening to all of these narratives, right? So we have all these different dominant dogmas all of these internal and external dominant dogmas that we’re hearing. And so we have to kind of, we have to quiet that, like you’re saying, create that space, to start to hear ourselves, but that act like it’s a muscle that we’re exercising, to hear ourselves to trust ourselves to say, Does this land with me? Do I like working with this therapist? Do I, like, you know, is relating to my pet more accessible to me versus what I’ve been told to trust and accept. And that was kind of just what was coming up for me? Yeah, some of that.

2

Speaker 2

41:39

I mean, it’s, it’s, this is the work, that all of those questions, and it’s not a destination, it’s not a once I am self, a self trusting, you know, worthy human, then I will be happy. You know, the pearly gates of happiness is going to make itself available. And then we’re never going to struggle in relationships. I mean, this is the nitty gritty work of is grappling with loss and change and trauma and transitions and trust and esteem, like self esteem and confidence in the worth, and all of the ways in which we now as an adult, have to essentially in many ways, undo or redo the things we didn’t get. And the ways in which, you know, we feel like now we are playing out the same pattern over and over most people who come through my doors, you know, who are wanting to work with me, that’s usually what they’ll say, I’m noticing that I, I’m, I’m finding myself in the same place that I found myself and over and over and over again, and nothing’s changing. Nothing’s, you know, doesn’t matter what I do I still finding myself here. And I don’t understand what’s happening. And what the truth of the matter is, that there are parts of our minds that we don’t even have access to, you know, there’s, there’s this idea of the unconscious, or there’s parts of us are in conflict with each other, that we may not even be aware of, we don’t even know our own minds, how can we then make an expect to trust ourselves when we don’t even know who self is. And so that is part of the exploration, the more that we can, you know, understand ourselves expand what we know about self about belonging about word about trust, we start to feel it without having to do like, without having to tell ourselves to trust ourselves, it just starts spinning. Yeah, there’s something about talking about things that makes things better. And it’s hard to even be able to understand the process until you’re in it. But that’s why I’m like, you don’t have to do it alone. Because there’s actually something really magical that can happen without us even doing self trust exercises.

MJ

Megan Johnson

44:10

Yeah, yeah, totally. I love that. That’s so so beautiful. If the the last thing I wanted to say on this, and then we can start to wrap up is it it also brings to mind so I’ve been doing quite a bit of research just on like neuro divergence, and also kind of how that relates to to autism and masking. And I feel like a lot of this conversation is the same to as it’s, we have these narratives that we’ve accepted, and we’ve kind of masked perhaps our true, our true selves, in a sense. And when we’re in these relationships, like you were saying we can, we can speak about things we can start to become aware of, perhaps how we’ve been masking parts of ourselves. And as we peel back those layers, we can reveal who we actually desire to be in the world. Yeah, but similar to folks who are neurodivergent. And autistic, masking can cause a great deal of hindrance to them, knowing themselves like personal identity can become hidden. And that was that was something else that kind of came to mind as it is all seems very correlated and connected.

2

Speaker 2

45:19

100% There’s this famous pediatrician and psychoanalyst, Donald Winnicott who kind of theorized about this idea of a false self and a true self. Right, and that we get told, and all of the ways in which how we are is not acceptable, what kind of being formed and molded into a false self. And the false self doesn’t always feel false. It doesn’t feel like we’re bad or that we’re different. It just feels like something’s off. But we really, in many ways, identify with the false self. No, this is who we are, yes, because we no longer see it as a mask, it is now an identity. This is all like I was taught growing up that I’m very stubborn, and I don’t let things go. So I came into therapy, saying I want to learn how to let things go, you know, I haven’t even touched food on my body, let it go before by the way, the movie came out, and then that just truly. But anyway, so that was my problem. Again, I needed to learn how to let things go. I was too stubborn, right? I believe that that is who I am, I am stubborn. And it took a lot of work for me to learn. Actually, I don’t have a problem with letting things go. If my emotions are still existing, still alive within me. It’s because something hasn’t been worked through. Hmm. Like mind blown like I it was so slowly to emotionally understand that when our emotions are sticky, when they’re not moving, it’s because something’s not being worked through. And we don’t have to demand them to go, we can continue to meet them. And in that meeting, something will be let go. Right. So there’s a lot of this, I think ideas, there’s a lot of ways in which the self help self development kind of world makes us think, Oh, this is my problem. My problem is that I don’t think positive enough, right? My problem is I don’t let things go this, my problem is that this I’m, I need to fix this. And this is the problem, right? That’s getting in my way masking, we identify as this is it. And then when we start to understand ourselves and expand the language that we can use for our internal world, we start to see that actually, maybe that’s not who we are. But that’s how we learned we had to be, I had to hold on to emotions, because nobody was listening to it the first time it came up. If I didn’t hold on to it, nobody would pay attention to them. So I’ve had to hold. I had to hold for people who refuse to hold. Yeah, right. Now I can have a different relationship with emotions, letting go holding on. I know there’s so much more space for me to understand and decipher why I’m holding on to something in a relationship, why I’m still upset at my husband for doing that thing. Maybe it’s not because I need to let it go. Maybe it’s because there’s something more to talk about to explore, to understand that there’s I’m not stubborn, I’m human. Right? So So that’s or and Megan we can also find all this maybe stubbornness, right? Maybe there’s even I am stubborn in some ways. And maybe I don’t have to hate myself so hard for the ways in which I’m stubborn. And there’s a lot that goes into this to

MJ

Megan Johnson

48:41

truly kind of like holding the both and in that just really noticing 100% Maybe there’s nothing there. And maybe there is a little bit too and we can get both of those things. And

2

Speaker 2

48:49

exactly and that we we don’t know until we’re in it and we’re grappling with it. So I yeah, I think you are exploring neurodivergent and exploring kind of how masking applies not only to autistic people but maybe also in many ways all of us do it to an extent as a way to fit in as a way to find ourselves to earn our belonging because we needed to belong. Attachment is so critical to our well being we will give up so much of our internal world if it means surviving and isn’t that so incredible? That we do this as humans the resilience in the human nature we will find ways to survive and that may be now as adults we get to go beyond survival and we get to go to thriving

MJ

Megan Johnson

49:40

Yeah 100% I love that I feel like that’s such a beautiful place as well to wrap up we get to step on to into thriving and and then to to freedom like you said as we get to know ourselves we get to become more free and yeah the This podcast is called Live Your freedom now and I I feel like for me that also it is just like also choosing that freedom for ourselves. As we’re doing this, like you had said before, it’s, there’s not a destination. And so how can we find those little bits of freedom for ourselves now and recognize that, that we’re human, and it’s okay. And this is all where we can step into that thriving as we’re on this, this exploration. So a couple wrap up questions for you if you’re open. Okay. So what is one way that you slow down amidst our busy world? Hmm.

2

Speaker 2

50:31

Walking my dog opening ourselves back to eco therapy? I think there’s a there’s something so unrelenting about his needs, right? He needs his walks every day, I shouldn’t even say the W word because he’s right here. But bowing down taking care of him being outside with him, I think has been a really important part, particularly during the pandemic.

MJ

Megan Johnson

50:52

Yeah, definitely, definitely. And then who are a couple of humans that you deeply admire or folks that you’re currently learning from?

2

Speaker 2

51:02

Oh, my goodness, well, I am kind of immersed in a very niche, specific world of psychoanalytic psychotherapy. And so any humans that I mentioned, there probably won’t be known by the general public. But maybe I’ll go very cliche with this answer and say, My myself. I mean, is that cliche is that narcissistic, what am I doing here? Yeah, I think my, my, the main person that I’m learning the most from is my own internal world. I think that’s my big focus and something that, you know, is helpful to, for us to think about as we’re grappling with things like inadequacy is really noticing how often we try to use other people’s voices to find our own that has definitely been something that I’ve grappled with, and I lose myself and trying to find myself in other people’s voices. Maybe that’s the way that I’m kind of defending my, my narcissistic answer there, but

MJ

Megan Johnson

52:01

no need to defend it. I think it’s I love it. And then how can we find and support you online? I know I briefly shared kind of at the top of the episode, but I’d love to circle back.

2

Speaker 2

52:13

Yeah, you can go to my website t sky.com. Where I am payscale.com. You can follow me on Instagram. That’s typically where I hang out. I have a podcast called reclaim. And I get quite a bit places got my Instagram tends to be where I’m most active. And I love connecting with people. So come find me there and come hit me up.

MJ

Megan Johnson

52:32

Awesome. Perfect. Well, thank you again for this wonderful conversation. Thank you and into just such beautiful places. So I really appreciate it. Thank you, Megan. Awesome. All right, go ahead. Yay.